Updates with new topics will come up later  -  State: December 26, 2024

Tribulation = Wrath?


Summary

The tribulation of the saints by the Antichrist will end at the return of Christ. God's retribution comes only afterwards and not at the same time.



According to the pre-tribulation doctrine, the great tribulation takes place at the same time as the wrath of God.

That means: Tribulation = Wrath. And because the church does not enter into the wrath, it does not enter into the tribulation. Consequently, the church will be raptured before the tribulation.




Answer


The great tribulation is the global distress and persecution of Christians and not the wrath of God.


The persecution will only end with the coming of the Lord Jesus. Then the retribution / wrath / vengeance of God begins - after the great tribulation, and not already during the great tribulation, see the following diagram:





The term "the great tribulation" refers to the global distress of the saints (that is the genuine Christians) from all nations and does not refer to the ungodly:


Revelation 7:9-14  9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one was able to number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

14 These are the ones coming out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


The wrath of God, on the other hand, is God's vengeance on the ungodly on earth.  It is the time of God's wrath judgements, that is the bowl judgements.


But the time of the great tribulation is not - as is often claimed - the time of God's wrathful judgements.


The great tribulation of the saints will only be ended by the coming of the Lord. Only then does the wrath of God begin, i.e. the retribution, the vengeance - AFTER the great tribulation.



----> For explanations and diagrams of the pre-tribulation doctrine, see:

Basic Argument: Shaking of the Universe




First the tribulation, then the wrath (and not at the same time)


The following four Bible passages prove this:

(Please read the table line by line from left to right)




Daniel 7


Distress of the Saints Turning point: Punishment of the oppressors
Daniel 7:21-27  21 I was watching, and this horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them,  22 until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High, and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
25 And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High. And he shall intend to change times and law. And they shall be given into his hand for a period of a time and times and half a time. [Or: continually harass]

26 But the court shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it until the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heavens shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High. His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him.




Matthew 24


Distress of the Saints Turning point: Punishment of the oppressors

Matthew 24:9-13 9 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
 10 And then many will be offended, will deliver up [or: betray] one another, and will hate one another.
 11 And many false prophets will rise up and will deceive many.
 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of the many will grow cold.
 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.



Matthew 24:29-39 29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will wail, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heavens to the other.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,

 39 and they did not realize until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.




2 Thessalonians 1


Distress of the Saints Turning point: Punishment of the oppressors
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10  6 since it is righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,
7 and to ‹give› you who are troubled, rest with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from Heaven with His mighty angels,
 8 in flaming fire giving vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ,
 9 who shall be punished with eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony to you was believed.




Revelation 6


Distress of the Saints Turning point: Punishment of the oppressors
Revelation 6:9-11 9 And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the Word of God and because of the testimony which they held.
 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying,
How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?
 11 And a white robe was given to each one of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until ‹ the number of › their fellow servants and their brothers, who were about to be killed as they were, was filled up. [i.e.: would be joined in full]


Rev 6:12-17 12 And I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its untimely figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
 14 And the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and ‹every› island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?



Turning point of the persecution




Turning point
Daniel 7 until the Ancient of Days came
Matthew 24 they will see the Son of Man coming
2 Thessalonians 1 at the revelation of the Lord Jesus... in flaming fire
Revelation 6 until they were joined by their brethren, who would be killed as well as they...
…  the great day of His wrath has come


In the 5th seal, the martyrs ask under the altar:


Revelation 6:10-11 10 “ … How long, O Lord, ... will You not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth? 11 ... and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until ‹ the number of › their fellow servants and their brothers, who were about to be killed as they were, was filled up.” [i.e.: would be joined in full]


The expression "How long" - in the 5th seal - indicates that God's vengeance (= retribution) has not yet begun. It will only begin when all the martyrs have entered, and that can only be at the end of the great tribulation. Thus vengeance (wrath) begins AFTER the great tribulation.


And that is in the next seal, the 6th seal, when the sun darkens and the Lord comes. For only then will the people of the earth confess that the Day of Wrath has come (see Rev 6:16-17 above). Revelation never speaks of the wrath of God or the anger of God before this passage.



Persecution of the saints is not the vengeance of God


But before the Day of Wrath, the Antichrist will have the upper hand by persecuting and destroying the saints (presumably 3.5 years) (see also Dan 7:25 above):


Rev 13:5-8  5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to act for forty-two months.

 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name and, His tabernacle, those who dwell in Heaven.

 7 And it was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them; and authority was given to him over every tribe and ‹every› people and ‹every› language and ‹every› nation.

 8 And all who dwell on the earth will do worship to him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


But according to the pre-tribulation doctrine, the great tribulation takes place at the same time as the wrath of God.



More reasons why the first 5 seals are not yet the wrath of God


a) Martyrs = Wrathful Judgment?


Revelation 6:9 And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the Word of God and because of the testimony which they held.


Why should the 5th seal be God's judgement of wrath? Is the wrath of God coming upon his saints?


It is true that all seals are opened by the Lamb. I.e. the Lord Jesus Christ is in control of everything and determines the timing. With the opening of the seals, he no longer holds back the evil, but allows people to do what they want, but only for a very limited time.



b) What a man sows, that he will reap


Revelation 16:4-6 4 And the third angel poured out his bowl into the rivers and the springs of water, and they became blood.

 5 And I heard the angel of the waters saying: You are righteous, O Lord, the One who is and who was, because You have judged these things,

 6 for they have poured out the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink, for they deserve it.




Conclusion


At the Second Coming there is a turning point, the circumstances are reversed: The oppressors are now being oppressed themselves - by the Lamb of God. Therefore the return of Christ in power and glory is a terror to the ungodly, but salvation and rest to the saints.


First the saints are afflicted (great tribulation), then comes the turning point and the afflicters experience the wrath of God.


----> The great tribulation is not the same as the wrath of God (retribution of God), see also:

Basic Argument: Shaking of the Universe



----> For how should the Antichrist be able to afflict the saints when he himself is afflicted by God?


This makes the argument of the pre-tribulation doctrine invalid:

For according to the pre-tribulation doctrine, the great tribulation takes place at the same time as the wrath of God. That means: Tribulation = Wrath. And because the church does not enter into the wrath, it does not enter into the tribulation. Consequently, the church will be raptured before the tribulation.


----> The church enters the great tribulation and is not raptured beforehand.


Updates with new topics will come up later  -  State: December 26, 2024